My Hayes fishermen ancestors lived in small houses like these on the edge of Baiter when they became more prosperous in the late 19th century...
My HAYES ancestors lived in the 19th century in the Baiter area of Poole (according to Census records). In those days this was the area where fishermen and their families lived, sometimes in rather crowded tenements.
Today it’s a leisure area beside Poole Harbour, with a big car park at its heart. I took these pictures in summer 2009.
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... looking across Poole Harbour to Brownsea Island
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Poole, Baiter, Dorset... looking back towards the port
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... looking back towards the port
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... looking back towards the port
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... looking across to the rich area of Sandbanks
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... ruin of a quarantine unit (I think) - certainly something to do with 19th century poverty or disease but I didn't write down what it said on the plaque...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... mallow flowering among wild barley on the shore
Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Baiter, Poole, Dorset... old fishermen's houses
More old fishermen's houses on the edge of Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
Modern housing in Baiter, Poole, Dorset...
The Lifeboat Museum between the Quay and Baiter in Poole - the town is the home of the RNLI...
While my HAYES ancestors lived in Baiter, my GILES forebears lived in Longfleet in the centre of Poole. They were gardeners, then bakers, then general factory workers. They lived in Denmark Road, of which I do not yet have pictures, and later in Green Road…
Green Road, Poole, where some of my Giles ancestors lived...
Green Road, Poole...
Green Road, Poole...
The Squirrelbasket 
Hello. My Name is Geoffrey Cartridge. I live in Adelaide and migrated here with my parents in Dec 1964. I was born in Poole Hospital in ’49 and lived mostly in Corfe Mullen. I went to QEGS Wimborne until ’64.
My father was Albert Cartridge, Grandfather was Edward Albert Cartridge aka “Princer”, and my great grandfather was Richard Hart Cartridge who lived in the family home “Conrad Cottage” , (the white cottage on the corner at Baiter, opp the Lifeboat House). I think this was two doors away from the Hayes family. My dad, who died aged 89 years old January 2010 often spoke fondly of the Hayes family, mentioning in particular Charlie Hayes. There were strong family/social/occupational connections esp with fishing. Likewise there were strong family connections with the Lifeboat and I believe the Hayes family also were lifeboat volunteers.
Our family (Cartridge) is traceable reliably to 1540 in Poole, owning a variety of properties and tenants in many parts of Old Poole. However, despite the long time period I do not think that we are formally or officially related. But as my dad said, and there is an element of truth in it, “Back in those days no one knew whose was whose child and they used to share them around at Christmas.”
Dad was technically born in Poole Pottery, a recessed part of the pottery wall in Gray’s Yard. There were three 3 story cottages there. The front rooms opened directly onto the street. Opposite I believe were Taylors Buildings, a slum now demolished. Later the family moved to Ballard rd and the house still stands. I can see it from Google earth now, looking North the third from the left fronting the harbour. I think Dad went to Stanley rd school, then South rd school and then Poole Grammar.
Later, just before WWII they moved to 104 Blandford rd Hamworthy.
Being very poor, like ALL the other fisher families, Baiter was a source of fish, cockles and crabs. The Cartridges in the lifeboat House included “Pidgee” a wildfowler. He had a copper bottomed Poole canoe with a punt gun on it. There is a photo of them all in the lifeboat house. You might like to have a look at my Flikr page called Cartridge Hustings. It has photos of the family (http://www.flickr.com/people/49978566@N06/). This has a link to the “family historian” Anne Clement who also has many photos & connections to the Bailey family.
One thing is for sure, the Hayes family and ours have had a long connection, but I do not know about the Giles family. There are still Cartridges in the Lifeboat House, eg Jason who is a second cousin I think. I am keen to explore this connection further eg with anecdotes and photos. Anne Clement is certain to be interested too.
Best wishes, Geoff, Woodside, South Australia.
Thank you for your comment. Lots of lovely information there!
I will copy it into my genealogy files as well as leaving it on the post in case any lost relatives of yours come across it.
I’m afraid I don’t really have any anecdotes from the Hayes side, as my mother left Dorset around the age of 20 and died when I was 10. Oh, the things I wish I had asked her…
I do have a couple of scraps from official sources. One of my Richard Hayes ancestors managed to appear in court for not paying back a loan on a couple of occasions. He also appeared at an inquest after finding a dead fisherman under his upturned boat out in the middle of Poole Harbour one day.
I have checked and have the most distant of connections with the Cartridges.
If you look in the 1901 census in Poole, you may see at East Quay Road, Poole St James [RG13/1979/page 7&8] Head: Thomas Cartridge, 63, Fisherman; Wife: Susan Cartridge, 64; Daughter: Lucy Cartridge, 25; Grandson: Frank Dean, 15, Tile Maker at Pottery.
That Frank Dean is the son of Frank Dean of Wareham and Susan Cartridge (married 1884 Poole). The older Frank Dean is the son of Robert Dean and Fanny Maria Giles (born Lytchett Matravers 1835). Fanny’s father was John Giles (born 1802 Sturminster Marshall). And he was, I believe, a brother of my 3-great grandfather Joseph Giles… As I say, a tenuous link!
Thanks again for stopping by 🙂
Hi, for some reason I can’t reply to the comment I actually want to answer, so I’m trying here instead. Re your descent from James’ brother Richard Hayes (1786-1854) and Honor Kitcat of Arne:
As I understand it, James and Richard had a sister Elizabeth, born about 1783, who was first wife to my 4g-grandfather John Tilsed (1785-1862), a Pilot of Poole. Honour Kitcat was a witness to the marriage of John and Elizabeth on 19 Jun 1807, along with one Thomas Messer.
The way I have things fitted together is that John and Elizabeth had only one child, a daughter Elizabeth who married George Cains after the birth of their first child, Maria Cains Tilsed. George Cains was also a Pilot, as was Maria’s husband Thomas Hart.
I am descended from John Tilsed’s second wife, Sarah Ashwood, and was fortunate enough to have been brought up in Poole, although not in the Old Town.
Thank you for a very interesting post, and as one of my interests is “collecting” Pilots and other mariners of Poole, I will be going through all the comments to add people to my tree!
Sorry you couldn’t quite comment in the way you wanted to. Do I need to pass your message on to anyone?
I was very interested to see your extra information. I must tidy up Elizabeth Hayes’ line on my tree.
I had this so far:
Elizabeth HAYES of Poole
? – before 1814
& John TILSED
M 19 Jun 1807
John remarried to Sarah ASHWOOD on 6 Sep 1814 and had several children…
So I guess we aren’t blood related but that is all useful information anyway!
Good luck with your mariner collecting 🙂
Hi, no need to pass my message on, thanks anyway – that one was mainly addressed to you. I will be replying to Sheila as well; I hope that’s OK.
“I guess we aren’t blood related…”
Who knows, we might be! And – as I’ve shown in my reply to Sheila – there are links by marriage all over the place between any two random people in Poole if you look in enough detail. (I discovered a few weeks ago that a lady married to my mother’s uncle was also a step-cousin on my father’s side!)
And further small coincidences: my mother’s parents lived in Denmark Road until the 1920s (my grandmother was born there in 1903), while on my father’s side, my great-grandfather was living in Green Road when he married in 1899.
Mmm, yes Poole people do seem very interrelated. Not sure if I mentioned it, but I have a cousin for whom Richard Hayes (christened) 1771 is both her 3-great and 5-great grandfather, as she is descended from his sons Richard and James on different sides of her tree…
Thanks for keeping in touch 🙂
Hello Geoff my name is John McAlister and I came across your article about Conrad Cottage, Poole, which belonged to my grand father Joseph Butler Leon Cartridge.
My mother Shiela still lives in Poole round the corner from Conrad Cottage and she informs me that the cottage was built by her family. My Mums brother Richard Cartridge also emmigrated to Brisbane about 42 years ago.
Please get in touch if you would like to talk more about the family as I can ask my mother any questions regarding the Cartridge family
Best wishes
John
I will happily leave this comment on my blog in the hope Geoff will take you up on your offer.
Best wishes for 2013 🙂
Hi there. If you look at the Poole history web site (photos) you will find a couple of photos of Frank Hayes, the family friend of my grandfather and great grandfather Richard Hart Cartridge. Some of the pics were taken from the charabanc ride to Winchester which my dad annotated and you can see that at Flickr Cartridge Hustings.
Cheers and Merry Christmas
Thanks – I see those now. It’s strange when you see pictures of people who are a little bit related, as you don’t know if their looks come from the part of their family you share or the part you don’t. Although I have a cousin with a nose a lot like Frank’s!
I notice there is a “Dicker Hayes” on the same charabanc trip. That may help me work out what relation these Hayes men are to my line.
I must see what else there is on the site.
Merry Christmas and thanks so much for the tip 🙂
Hi there.
I was fascinated to discover and read your blog and the responses with so many memories of my family and neighbours in Poole.
My name is Christine Jones nee Hayes. My grandfather was Frank Hayes (who lived in Green Road) and my father was Bill Hayes(who sadly passed away in April this year). Until the age of 14 I lived opposite the lifeboat house in Ballard Road – next to the Wills family and 2 houses away from the Cartridge family. My family was very much involved with the lifeboat service – my grandfather and my Great-Uncle Dick all served as Coxswains as did my father. My Uncle Frank was Engineer. Best wishes Chris
Thanks for your comment and information. Hayes is a great Poole name and I am pleased to be related.
Although I can’t find your grandfather and great uncle on my tree anywhere, it is probably because they are too recent. Do you know who their father was?
I think you are probably descended from James Hayes (1789-1854) and Hannah Warne, while I am descended from James’ brother Richard Hayes (1786-1854) and Honor Kitcat of Arne. Richard and James were brothers, both fishermen and sons of another Richard Hayes, of Studland.
Do you know where you fit in?
Best wishes, distant cousin!
🙂
Chris, so sorry to read about your father passing away. I visited your mum and dad some years back at their flat when I was searching the family tree. Bills father was Frank whose brothers were John, my line, and Richard, and their father was John, son of Richard. I think the whole family were in the fishing business and involved in the RNLI.
The above correspondence just proves that it is important (and interesting) to go through those ancient photos and preserve them with annotations on the back and share them. Too often, as has happened especially with the Cartridge family, photos were destroyed and of course as the generations age and die, sadly the oral history disappears. Listening to the elders and recording the information is so important. I do not recall much of what my father said about the Hayes family except that my Grandfather “Princer” Cartridge was very well acquainted with Frank Hayes and other members of the Hayes family. The connection was certainly there as Richard Hart Cartridge lived just two doors away in Conrad Cottage again directly opposite the Lifeboat House, so the families would have been familiar on a daily basis, and most probably occupationally too.
Unfortunately my grandfather was not very communicative with me or the rest of the family when I was a lad and I guess that a lot of the historical stories went to his grave with him.
Dad (Albert William C) did say that once there was a terrible storm and the water flooded the quay up as far as the Town House. I am not sure when. But apparently a whole section of the quay slid into the harbour requiring major works. It was found that the quay was built on a huge bank of oyster shells which caused instability.
He also said that under Conrad cottage was a tunnel and the evidence for this was that rain water used to flow freely into this. The existence of a real smugglers tunnel is unlikely I think. You have to reason why it would be there. More likely is the existence of a hidden store room. That is pure conjecture.
It is known that there is a “smugglers passage” at Conrad Cottage between the buildings.
When the lifeboat was needed a “maroon” was fired on a piece of vacant land near the lifeboat house and dad does remember this.
The above correspondence leads me to make further effort to sort, copy and enter them on Flickr for all to access. If anyone has pictures of Cartridges, Hustings, hayes, Matthews, or related families please preserve them. I would like copies so as I can save and enter them on Flickr (when I get a round tuit)
Good health to you all!
You can contact me on geoffrey.cartridge@bigpond.com
Fascinating stuff.
I will copy those anecdotes into my genealogy notes immediately!
Best wishes 🙂
Hi, just passing by reading Geoff Cartridges words, then noticed your reply re Robert Dean and Fanny Dean who appear in my ancestry too! I’ll.re.read it and get back to you.
Barry Cobb
Hi,
All veryInteresting, My family were the Lovells/Cartridges/Ameys/ Trims/Caines/Bartlett. On your opening photos the houses opposite the old lifeboat house, one is still owned by a family member.
My Great grandfather was a founder member of Poole Lifeboat, despite the fact that he lost one arm at the Brownsea Pottery when he was about 12 years old.He could swim like a fish and used to jump off the quay and entertain people. His name was William Lovell, his Mother was Maria Cartridge.
Williams Father also William, was a mariner and drowned at Quebec in the Newfoundland trade aboard “The Caroline”, in 1852.
Williams daughter Mary (Polly) married Edwin (Adgy) Amey. They lived next to Mrs Hayes who I can just about remember, in Green Road.My grandfather was a very prosperous man.Also Adgy was a fantastic football player, but his cockles apparently were to die for.
We all attended Lagland Street school and then on to South Road school, then Henry Harbin, or Herbert Carter,or the local Grammar Schools if we were able.
Our playground was Baiter (which was a dump) but we had great times. And Poole Quay. I would like to add that Poole people were very proud and clean there were no slums!!! we were just a bit overcrowded. And I notice the most overcrowded parts that for some reason were not knocked down (ie, I was not allowed to go there) are being sold for vast sums of money, is’nt life strange.
We all learned to swim in Poole Quay, and it was a working Port. I love Poole.
Lovely anecdotes – some more for my Poole history file…
By chance I have just returned today from a few days in Poole and passed Lagland Street every day as well as walking along Baiter as usual.
I think the weather has been drier in Dorset this summer than in Wales, and there is not so much in the way as colourful wild flowers along the shore of Baiter as in previous years.
Best wishes 🙂
Lots of interesting information here, Sheila!
My family were the Lovells/Cartridges/Ameys/Trims/Caines/Bartlett
I was in touch with your sister Maureen a few years back, so I was aware of our Haskell/Amey connection but I’ve now filled in a bit more detail from this, thank you! Your mother’s grandfather Charles Henry Haskell was brother to my gg-grandmother Eliza Annie who was registered as Haskell but christened (after their parents’ marriage) as Amey. I’ve often wondered what was going on in Verwood at the time, because there were a number of couples around that time who didn’t marry until they already had four or more children.
Another connection we have is that your mother’s first cousin Florence Haskell married William Tilsed, to whom my father was second cousin twice removed.
My Great grandfather was a founder member of Poole Lifeboat … His name was William Lovell, his Mother was Maria Cartridge.
And another link – typical Old Poole! – Maria Cartridge’s mother Honour Cains was sister to George Cains, and George Cains’ wife Elizabeth Tilsed was half-sister to my ggg-grandfather James Tilsed.
George Cains and James Tilsed were both Pilots, and James was also an early lifeboatman in Poole. He is listed as being in the first crew in 1865.
Sorry, as I don’t have a WordPress account this is the only way I can find of registering for comment notifications using my new email address! Presumably I’ll still get them if you wish to delete this comment. Thanks.
Hi Sheila
Wow – so many memories!
I remember ‘Aunt Polly’ very well. She lived next door to my Grandma Hayes in Green Road! I used to pop in to visit her with my grandmother in the 1950s when I was a little girl. She had a parrot which could talk!
Aunt Polly also had a grandaughter, Jean Craig, who lived in South Road – and was a friend of mine at South Road School. She sadly died in a car accident when she was in her teens. Are you related?
I went to school at Lagland Street followed by South Road School then on to Henry Harbin.
I remember buying milk ice lollies from Lovells Grocery Shop in Stanley Road – the name Dorothy Lovell comes to mind? Are the family related to you? I think the family might also have owned the beach cafe near the Ferry at Shell Bay (or is that a different family?)
As well as fishing my grandfather also had an allotment at Baiter where he grew all kinds of vegetables and soft fruit. I can also remember playing at Baiter – particularly on the remains of the old swimming baths at Baiter (where my father said that he used to swim when he was young). Happy days!
Best Wishes. Chris
Hi Chris,
I probably have not seen you for 50 years, Jean was my sister, it is nice that you can remember my Gran. The Lovells store was my great Uncle Jacks’.
Uncle Jack was a disabled serviceman, he lost a leg in the Great War. He started the cafe at Shellbay originally a wooden hut, it must have been very hard for him transporting everything across there every day, but people then seemed to have great stamina and drive.
The allotments at baiter were so well maintained were’nt they. They were forbidden territory, but the veggies all looked so good.
Correct me if I am wrong Chris, you were the captain of the girls netball team at South Road along with my sister and friends, and won the Netball tournament for South Road for probably the first and last time 1963, also I think the boys won the Football Tournament, so it was a double whamee that year.
Best Wishes Sheila
Ref jack lovell,poole.On ancestry there are photos of him and I have a lot of information on him while doing research on local men in ww1.
You can phone me o 01202-742269 if you wish to talk more on jack lovell
Regards Ken
Happy to pass on the message…
Merry Christmas 🙂
Hi Chris,my name is Peter Lovell, I have only just discovered this site and am
amazed at the number of names that I am familiar with,I am trying to fill in gaps in my family history and wondered if you might be available for an info exchange sometime.I would be absolutely thrilled to discover some new facts about our respective families.
best regards ,
peter.
PS I went to all the same schools as you from mid 1950s on .
Happy to introduce you to each other 🙂
Good luck and stay safe…
I’m very happy to “host” your nostalgic Poole conversation with Sheila. Hope you don’t mind me eavesdropping!
Best wishes 🙂
Sheila, I have a couple of old photos showing a very young Willie Lovell must be dated about 1932/3 and my father wrote a poem in which the name of Willie Lovell features.
If you look on my Flickr page (cartridge hustings……… http://www.flickr.com/photos/49978566@N06/) there is a photo at the bottom, of the fishermens’ prize giving .
My Great grandma Sarah Cartridge is giving out the prizes. Sarah must have died shortly afterwards from injuries received from a football kicked by some lads where Taylors Buildings once stood. The injury to the fragile skin on her forehead never healed and she died.On the right standing next to a tall man is a blonde curly haired little boy. That is Willie Lovell. There is another photo somewhere. My Father Albert (Bert) Cartridge is standing near the back, he has a large mole on his forehead. he is standing next to a man with a fishermans flat hat (Pidgee Cartridge who was not only in the Lifeboat but was also a wildfowler) The girl with the white hat was my Aunt Stella Cartridge. I just looked for the poem “Willie Lovell and his shovel” on my computer but it is not there. I know there is a printed copy somewhere. I believe that a relative was head of South Rd Primary(?) a Miss Hart. (Memo to self….finish uploading pictures properly!) My dad’s house up to about 1936 was in Ballard rd , the third semi detached houses on the beachfront (red brick downstairs next to number 11), it has a white compact car parked at the front according to Google Earth).
Oh, what an awful way to die! How sad…
But thanks for your reminiscences 🙂
Thanks for all the information Geoff, you have some great photos, I wish my Mum was still alive as she would remember all the childrens names I am sure, on the fishermans prizegiving photo. If you ever find the poem for Willie Lovell I would like to read it. I expect he is a relative.
When I was very young my siblings and friends would go “down shore” and play and it was nice to see all the old fisherman mending their nets and chatting all day at the fishermens dock, nice memories.
Glad I have brought back a few memories for you all!
I wonder if any of my Hayes relatives are in those fishermen’s photos of Geoff’s…
Best wishes 🙂
One of the most comprehensive genealogy web sites about Poole is that of the Pearce family.
http://www.pearces.org.uk/
It is unusually comprehensive for the Pearce family but there is connection with the Lovell family, and the Hayes family as well as an extensive section on Cartridge. It is certainly worth a look at and a great credit to all who have contributed to this work especially Alan Pearce and Anne Clement.
I have found the poem about Willie Lovell who was a younger contemporary of my late father Bert Cartridge. I will try to copy it and send it as soon as I can.
Best wishes and Seasons Greetings to all old Poole families and my relatives there.
I have had a look at that Pearce website. Very interesting, although sadly I can’t find any of my people there. Only one Hayes, and he is a Sidney born 1912. I can’t place him anywhere in my tree so I expect he is a descendant of James Hayes, a brother of one of my Richard Hayes ancestors, born before 1800. So not very closely related!
All the best 🙂
Hi Geoff my name is Peter Lovell,my gran Ada Lovell lived at 3 East st.Her neighbour was a mrs Cartridge I can’t remember her name but I think her daughter was called Benita or Bonita.Are you possibly related?
Would love to hear from you
Regards
Peter.
FYI and I don’t know where this fits, but Honor Cains married William Cartridge in 8. 5 1823. There were 11 children surnamed Cartridge. Richard, Maria, John, Elizabeth, Thomas, Charlotte, Mail da, William, Sarah, James Caine c. There was an explosion of progeny afterwards. If you like get back to me gacartridge@gmail.com
I hope this leads to an explosion of other Cartridge relatives getting in touch with you 🙂
Janice Hayes – So sorry that I didn’t respond to your message last August – only just read it! Lovely to hear that you once visited my mum and dad at their flat on Longfleet Road. I’m sure dad must have had lots of memories to share with you. I’d love to know your actual relationship to my Great Grandfather John Hayes and perhaps to share photos etc with you!! Are you on Ancestry?
Squirrel Basket – thank you for providing the opportunity to meet up with so many lovely distant relations! I don’t think I ever responded to your query about where I fit in with your family tree?!! Yes – we’re definitely descended from the same Richard Hayes line!
I also share some of your Giles forebears via the marriage of my Grandmother’s (Vera Gertrude Hayes!) sister Ella Lucas to Harry Giles!!
Best wishes.
Chris
Oh, right! I had on my tree:
Harold GILES
3 Feb 1899 – Aug 1991
& Ella Amelia L LUCAS
13 Feb 1901 – May 1988
M AMJ 1923
Harold was a brother of my grandfather Percival Giles.
I must fill in a few gaps on the tree!
And I’m delighted if this post brings together other distant relatives.
All the best 🙂
William Cartridge who married Honor Cains was the son of William who married Sarah Haskell in 5.11.1793. My gt gt gt grandfather.
I have a photo of Willie Lovell when he was a lad of about 5 at the fisherman’s prize giving. My gt grandma was handing out awards etc, I think just before she died about 1932.
I hope this is not too late to add to the old Poole family connections My brother and I are the Spurriers once Green Road residents. David fished as a boy with Frank Hayes and others of his generation. Miss Hart was our first school Headmistress.(Yes we are old) Our father was killed in WW2 on board Pilot Vessel No 4 on which Mr. Cartridge and Mr Toms were crew members We were part of the life you are all writing about Mr Lovell who rowed to Shell Bay carrying Water as there was none on tap when he started his Shell Bay Cafe I was a friend of Monica Hayes who emigrated to Australia I am going to see my brother who knows and knew so many of your relatives and will post more or you can contact me Lovely memories Wonderful Poole Wonderful people that’s why I am still a resident. I was part of the Production team who made a Videos “Poole my Kind of Town” and “The Newfoundland Trail” Thank you all
Lovely to hear from you!
I hope others will also appreciate these memories.
I may contact you for more information when I have a moment.
I am so envious that you are still there in Poole. I miss visiting it but as we now have no car I can’t imagine ever getting back there again…
All the best 🙂
I have just noticed Doreen Hassett has posted in 2021 about her father being killed on Pilot Vessel no 4 in WWII. This account is taken from my family history book which contains a few pictures of that time. I tried to paste them into this account but they would not. So this is not illustrated.
On November 29th 1941 during WWII he was the only officer (1st Mate) left standing when his ship “Pilot Vessel / boat Number 4” took a direct hit on the bridge and another shell exploded killing crew and officers. He took control, searching for living men among the bodies and he gave the order to abandon ship. The Ship was a part of the inspection service which intercepted ships inspecting them for enemies and dangerous goods. There was a mix of naval, volunteers and civilians firemen on board.
In July 2020 I was contacted by a lady (Hannah Gadd) researching a WWII event, 29th November 1940 in which a ship “Pilot Vessel 4” (432 tons, so it was quite small) came under fire from 3 German destroyers off the coast of Cornwall. The ship was hit several times and of the 14 crew there were at least three naval casualties. I then knew only a very sketchy account and had to do some investigating.
Royal Navy Personnel
Lieutenant (E) George Percival Harding Aged 58
Lieutenant Reginald Henry Whiteley Aged 49
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell (MiD) D/BD/X 1750 Aged 22 awarded a posthumous MID
Seaman Edgar Leo Toms, R.N.R. survived badly wounded and he was awarded the D.S.M
There were three Civilian Seaman killed(these were possibly Poole firemen)
J Dick – of Poole
A Moore – of Poole
A Spurrier – of Poole
The person who nominated Toms and Mitchell for official awards was our Pop, Albert Edward Cartridge Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who was ships Mate. He was the one who gave assistance to the wounded and called for rescue. The two photos (below) of my Pop sitting on a bollard with 4 others and sitting centre in a group of three were the firemen survivors of the action. Photos taken by the local newspaper in Plymouth. I do not know who the others men are.
After abandoning ship they were rescued by HMS Javelin.
HMS Javelin after the sinking of Pilot Vessel 4 was then torpedoed and had the bow completely blown off. A shell then hit the stern and destroyed that too. Only some 165 feet of the middle was left floating and was towed back to Plymouth for repair. It is unclear whether they returned to Falmouth on what remained of HMS Javelin or were taken off by HMS Jackal. The story does link with a later story about Lord Louis Mountbatten as it was he who was commanding HMS Javelin. So I suspect that my Pop was involved in two naval actions on 28th / 29th November 1940 and then taken to Falmouth or Plymouth. The photos shows Pop dressed in dirty coveralls with his fellow crew members who were firemen volunteers. Pop was paid from Plymouth so although he was a volunteer he was paid by the Navy. He served on fireboats in Poole harbour and had a very nasty experience cleaning up many hundreds of floating drowned and burned bodies after the tragic Slapton sands incident of Devon and of Lyme Bay Dorset. This seemed to have affected him very badly. Top photo left. Albert Cartridge. Bottom Centre. Likely at Plymouth after the action at sea. Note dirty overalls
There is a photo of a letter my pop sent from 104 Blandford rd and I will type it here. Dated 2nd December 1940
Addressed to Com Lyons 1IC
Dear Sir, With regard to the sinking of Pilot Boat No 4 by enemy action on the 29th November, I would like to mention that J Mitchell ord seaman and Leo Toms , Able Seaman, Lewis gunners on board, acter with great bravery against enormous odds, ie, two Lewis guns against two destroyers arms. Leo Toms was badly wounded and J Mitchell who was killed fell with the gun in his arms. I am of the opinion that they deserve some recognition and would appreciate it if you would put this through to the proper authorities.
Thanking you, I am yours respectfully, A E Cartridge (Mate)
As a postscript to this letter discovered that J Mitchell who died had a precious watch which he wanted his family to have and Pop promised to give it to them. My aunt Brenda apparently remembered a lady coming to 104 Blandford rd to collect it. .
Medals were awarded in recognition to the two gunners mentioned by my grandad.
The mention of Mountbatten was curious as apparently he was on board HMS Javelin at the time. He summoned my grandfather to his room and proceeded to tear a strip off him for taking his ship off patrol to rescue them. My pop, put his hat on and thus “outranking him” called him a bloody fool and told him to go back to naval school and read up the law of the sea, So the story goes. But Mountbatten was prone to mishaps and HMS Javelin having its bow and stern shot off was a little unforgivable.
Regards all. Geoff
Geoff Cartridge. Re Doreen Hassett.Spurrier)
As previously mentioned the Cartridge family was closely associated with the Hayes family, as neighbours and in occupation. My father told me that my gt grandmother Sarah Cartridge (Hart) was the sister of Miss Hart the headmistress. He remembered her as being kind to him when he was a scholar there.
(I did post this all previously but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace)
I would, for the sake of the preservation of Poole history relate my recent discoveries about the sinking of Pilot boat No 4, and the deaths of the following crew
Lieutenant (E) George Percival Harding Aged 58
Lieutenant Reginald Henry Whiteley Aged 49
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell (MiD) D/BD/X 1750 Aged 22 (awarded a posthumous MID)
Seaman Edgar Leo Toms, R.N.R. survived badly wounded and he was awarded the D.S.M
There were three Civilian Seaman killed(these were likely Poole firemen)
J Dick – of Poole
A Moore – of Poole
A Spurrier – of Poole
On November 29th 1941 during WWII Albert (“Prince”) Cartridge was the only officer (1st Mate) left standing when his ship “Pilot Vessel Number 4” took a direct hit on the bridge and another shell hit exploded killing crew and officers. He took control, searching for living men among the bodies and he gave the order to abandon ship. Pilot boat 4 intercepted ships inspecting them for enemies and dangerous goods. There was a mix of Service men, volunteers and civilians on board.
In July 2020 I was contacted by a lady (Hannah G) researching the circumstances of the action as she was related to one of the crew.
“Pilot Vessel 4” (432 tons, so it was quite small) came under fire from 3 German destroyers off the coast of Cornwall. The ship was hit several times and of the 14 crew there were at least three naval casualties.
Lieutenant (E) George Percival Harding Aged 58
Lieutenant Reginald Henry Whiteley Aged 49
Ordinary Seaman John Caleb Mitchell (MiD) D/BD/X 1750 Aged 22 (awarded a posthumous MID)
Seaman Edgar Leo Toms, R.N.R. survived badly wounded and he was awarded the D.S.M
There were three Civilian Seaman killed(these were likely Poole firemen)
J Dick – of Poole
A Moore – of Poole
A Spurrier – of Poole
The person who nominated Toms and Mitchell for official awards was my grandfather, Albert Edward Cartridge RNR who was ships Mate. He gave assistance to the wounded and called for rescue and saw them safe.
After abandoning ship they were rescued by HMS Javelin which was captained by Louis Mountbatten. HMS Javelin, after the sinking of Pilot Vessel 4 was then torpedoed and had the bow completely blown off and the stern was too. Only some 165 feet of the middle (out of 353 feet) was left floating and was later towed back to Plymouth for repair. The survivors were taken off by HMS Jackal. This account does link with a family story about Lord Louis Mountbatten. So I suspect that my Pop was involved in two naval actions on 28th / 29th November 1940 and then taken to Falmouth or Plymouth. I have two photos of my Pop sitting on a bollard with 4 others and sitting centre in a group of three I think were the survivors of the action. Photos were likely taken by the local newspaper in Plymouth. I do not know who the other men are.His pay book shows that he was paid from Plymouth so although he was a volunteer he was paid by the Navy.
One of the dead crewmen had a watch which he was very proud of and my grandfather knew that he wanted his family to have it returned so he contacted them. My late aunt Brenda remembered a lady coming to 104 Blandford road to collect it.
My Grandfather wrote a letter commending the actions of J. Mitchell and Leo Toms who were subsequently given awards as listed above. This is a transcript of the letter.
AE Cartridge
104 Blandford rd,
Hamworthy.
“Commander Lyons 1 IC
Dear Sir,
With regard to the sinking of Pilot Boat no 4 by enemy action on 29th November, I would like to mention that ord. Seaman J Mitchell and Leo Toms (Able Seaman), Lewis gunners aboard, acted with great bravery against enormous odds; that is two Lewis guns against two destroyers.
Leo Toms was badly wounded and J Mitchell fell with the gun in his arms.
I am of the opinion that they deserve some recognition and would appreciate it if you could put this through to the proper authorities
Thanking you, Yours respectfully, AE Cartridge (Mate)
Although my grandfather put himself in grave peril, he never sought recognition and received none. But he did have a “run in” with then Captain Louis Mountbatten. He was after the rescue, summoned to Mountbatten’s room who was then just a captain. He took off his hat as he entered and Mountbatten reprimanded him most strongly for calling for rescue saying that he took his ship off patrol, just for a few men. My grandfather then put his own hat on and now he was of equal rank to Mountbatten. He then called him a bloody fool and quoted the “rules of the sea” and told Mountbatten to return to naval school to study and get experience..
HMS Javelin was a particularly “accident prone” ship and Mountbatten was not highly thought of as a leader at all. Captain Lord Mountbatten was on board the ship during this action and in command of the Flotilla. The execution of this attack has been the subject of much criticism. See “HOLD THE NARROW SEA” by P Smith and “ENGAGE THE ENEMY MORE CLOSELY” by C Barnett.)
Pop served on fireboats in Poole harbour and had a very nasty experience cleaning up the many hundreds of bodies after the tragic Slapton Sands incident of Devon and of Lyme Bay Dorset. This seemed to have affected him very badly.
I hope this has been of interest. It shows that service men and women and civilian volunteers of Poole certainly did their bit for the defense of the country.
I do have some photos but I cannot find a way to post them here.
A postscript to the story of Pilot Vessel No 4 on which my father Albert Edward Spurrier was killed. After Research from me, Coastal Command Forum, and my determination to find details of my fathers death when I knew all about my stepfathers wartime years, and there was no detail or name on a war memorial for my dad, no pension for my mum, even though we had the Kings official scroll stating he had given his life for King and Country. Knowing how my mother worked to earn a living to keep us, her three young children, I was determined to right a wrong. So, we found all the details which the Merchant and Royal Navy denied knowledge, until this year when all the documentation known to Mr Cartridge was after all these years found. This month, the War Graves Commission have investigated my fathers case, and he will be added to Merchant Navy War Memorial on Tower Hill London. I was 2 when my father was killed, so as my brother David, now calls me Miss Perseverance! If anyone knows if Yvonne Shannon (maiden name) of the old East Street Poole is still with us, I would like to make contact as I think her father was also on this ship and did not survive..
I hope you make contact – and I’m glad your perseverance paid off.
Best wishes 🙂
Just discovering this now. All so very interesting. My grandfather was Reginald Henry Whiteley, Lieutenant on Pilot Vessel #4, which was hit on November 29, 1940. Of course, I never got to meet him, but I always love to learn more about the life he led.
Doreen ,so glad you made a wrong —-right . They all deserve a mention . These memories though hard to read should never be forgotten . My children and my grandchildren will all hear of their Grandads great heroism Leo Toms .
Jane Toms. I knew nothing of my grandfathers experiences on pilot vessel #4 until recently… He never spoke of his war experiences and kept all of that inside. His letter commending others of course omitted his own name and he never received recognition when he should have. His WWI medals were never worn or displayed. I do not think people today appreciate the suffering of combatants and their families who never received counselling, therapy, compensation or support after hostilities were over. I hope that history will not repeat but humanity has throughout history failed over and over.
Hello, I was wondering if you know of anyone who has traced the Matthews family history that I can contact? My grandfather was Reginald Matthews, my great grandfather Thomas (both Poole fisherman). Many thanks.
Simon
I’m afraid I can’t help you on that one but maybe someone will spot this comment and contact you.
Best wishes 🙂